Perfectly, here’s Ken’s masterful scientific study in regards to the bloodlines of Llewelyn Fawr and you may Joanna

Merely ‘Ellen’s’ term remains a mystery, there appears to be no-you to named Ellen otherwise Helen, except perhaps a keen ‘Eleanor’ into Joanna’s front side (Eleanor off Aquitaine, mommy regarding Joanna’s dad Queen John)

Hey, folks. It’s its interesting; everything i won’t enjoys made available to get access to this information twenty-5 years in the past when i is actually contrasting and you can creating Right here Be Dragons!

The main reason for this exercising is to try, of the a review of genealogist’s views about them and also by contacting some recognized new supplies, to choose who was the caretaker out of Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Is actually she Joanna, partner off Llywelyn bunu burada gГ¶rГјn abdominal Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Created circa.1188, died. February 1237) or is she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch away from Rhos, mistress off Llywelyn, born circa. 1168, died??

I shall follow this which have a holiday investigation towards you are able to lifestyle away from a beneficial ded Susanna, considering out to King Henry 111 given that a great hostage within the 1228 together with her infant custody being supplied to Sir Nicholas Verdun with his partner Clementia.

New views of the Genealogists that i features learnt are only one to, opinions, plus they differ greatly. Zero distinct facts is present in any event, but i have to declare that the majority hold having Gwladus become this new child from Joanna. This is particularly true of genealogists of one’s descendants off the fresh De Braose relatives, nonetheless ily are linked with both Welsh and English regal property!

The list following away from Llywelyn’s numerous genuine and you may illegitimate pupils appears to get generally acknowledged from the every genealogists that i features examined apart from distinctions more if or not #9 very lived. The brand new times out-of birth given just below are debated from the particular:

  1. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, produced circa.1199, passed away 1244
  2. Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, born circa.1206, passed away 1251
  3. Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1206? passed away circa 1253,
  4. Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1208? died circa 1263,
  5. Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince from Wales, produced circa 1208 (1211?) (second thoughts about it go out, find later on), died twenty five February 1246,
  6. Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1209 died 1281.
  7. Angharad ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1210, passed away 1257
  8. Tegwared ap Llywelyn – produced circa 1210, it is possible to twin to Angharad?
  9. ‘Helen’, or ‘Susanna’, produced circa 1214? Died 1259?

Discover much dispute along the label of mothers away from these types of college students. There clearly was general contract that merely specific youngsters off Llywelyn’s elizabeth Prince away from Wales and you can Ellen (Helen) exactly who hitched (1) John brand new Scot, son of your own earl out-of Chester and you can (2) Robert de Quincy. Regardless if opinion are split up over the mothers out of Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and Susanna, all the genealogists I have read slim into their mom getting Joanna.

This will be partly with their heading times away from beginning once the better as their marriages to different marcher lords who, one supposes, will have tried so you’re able to make their homes to that of its neighbour, the brand new Prince out of Northern Wales and his wife, this new queen regarding England’s daughter. It’s believed that these lords of your own March won’t have obtained such interest otherwise governmental inspiration for the marrying out-of the sons on illegitimate daughters from a good Welsh prince that have good Welsh lady.

From what names of these pupils, if by the Joanna, Tangwystl or other people, these were every named once people in Llywelyn’s relatives:

Ken, the audience is completely on your debt

Llywelyn’s mom is entitled ‘ed ‘Susanna’ out-of Gwynedd. His paternal grandmother is entitled ‘Gwladus’. The parents of his granny Susanna, have been ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and ‘Angharad’ from Flint and you may both its labels were given so you can Llywelyn’s children. So it Susanna and additionally got a brother named ‘Gwenllian’, a comparable identity since Llywelyn’s great-grandmother.